Price Suggestion
~410 keys
anti-freeze
Unusual Modest Pile of Hat Anti-Freeze
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9 votes down
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This suggestion was accepted by Vijf Kilo Boter (met voetjes).

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    Hi This was a quicksell purchase. This is just unreal. Deserves a drop? By what logic. I saw this unrealistic suggestion of dropping it to 400, from a seller who has played tf2 maybe once in the last 2 months, was looking to quicksell. I talked him down further to a price of 280. Even my profile name exclusively reads Buying Quicksells....

    This is far below his listed price and clearly something he has done out of spite to keep this hat from gaining offers, because i very clearly mentioned to him in his previous suggestion that it was a quickbuy. Big Downvote for the suggester.

      Furthermore, the poster also see's now the Sellers Nickname is now QS BF Law, War Pig. Are we now using cash out quicksells as base prices for hats? Has this community really become that desparate?

        You claiming it was a quicksell doesn't just make it one, fact of the matter is he was unable to sell it for 2 months at 400 keys, and it finally sold as a "quicksell" for 280. The hat is overpriced and it deserves the drop

          So are you saying don't buy any hat that is outdated for pure, because at no price will it be a quicksell? Because this was 30% lower than his listed price. Which would by definition make it a Quicksell. The same hat if the seller had just changed his listing to quickselling for 280 on backpack.tf and i had bought it in the same day, would not pass...because "Sold within a day" logic which has been used over and again. But the same logic for a negotiated quicksell does not hold? why is that?


          The seller Tried Quickselling at 400. Was unable to do so for 2 Months on a Low-Bump ; Low Involvement Selling Mechanism. However, this too is no proof that he did not receive hat offers of around or over that range. Furthermore, a sale of 280 as a quickbuy leaves way too much into the air of uncertainty. And for convenience of just having things updated, you have then essentially decided to wipe 300*3 = 1620$ From the economy; Just because someone, and i repeat this, quickbought an outdated hat.


          The more rational decision would be to wait to see what i resell the hat for before repricing so that you actually have a legitimate sale to go for. This is also keeping in mind the valuations that the other two owners of the AF Modest that have purchased hats at considerably higher values than 280. I guess economics isn't one of your stronger subjects. But please be respectful of other people who spend their money into playing this game.


          And that High-Horse logic of, when that guy wants to sell he should be able to get the price he bought it for if its worth it, barely holds. Can we not pretend to be ignorant about the true power that backpack.tf holds over trading today as it enjoys uncontested monopoly? While we want to believe that people should use these prices as a guide, more than 90% people follow these prices as truth; and the ones who know better are us high tier traders, most of whom make bank by purchasing quicksells, miscs, halloweens, or Super Specific Hats. And i would like to believe this community is built to help all 100% through, not just the top 10% (Which i do find myself a part of as well)


          If this hat is truly deserving of a reprice of 280 according to a Moderator; Then i please urge the community to relook at pricing suggestion rules as this is resulting in us diminishing the size of the economy by ourselves, which leads to more people exiting, and that is risky not just for trading, but the website and community as well.

              Im just saying. if i bought it for 400, then yes makes sense. But if the same hat i would wait a week for your suggestion to accept at 400 and bought at 280 you would call it a quicksell. Please recognize the flaws in your logic here rather than being arrogant and asking me to not post my opinions on a public forum. Im questioning the logic of dropping it to 280.

              I have seen the Mods call out better to wait for resale multiple times in cases like this. Youre drop would hold valid if he had not been able to sell for 280 for a long time either. But youre suggestion was 400 unsold for long. So i offered him 30% lower...base quickbuying practice. Imma just wait for Mods Opinion on this

              "Don't buy any hat that is outdated for pure, because at no price will it be a quicksell?"

              The fact of the matter is that it couldn't sell at 400, a significant discount for 2 months, and finally it sold for 280 pure. Theres no proof/indication that it sold fast, and you can only call something a quicksell/low if it's sold fast (hence the name quick-sell) or if there's other data points/sales that support said sale being low, or if its countered by buyers. In this case it finally sold after having to be discounted heavily for pure just to get any offers, theres really nothing that says this was a quicksell, or is too low.


              "The seller Tried Quickselling at 400. Was unable to do so for 2 Months on a Low-Bump ; Low Involvement Selling Mechanism. However, this too is no proof that he did not receive hat offers of around or over that range."

              Even if he had low bump amounts and low involvement/effort in selling the hats, it still could have easily been found by people looking for quicksells, and 2 months is more than adequate time to call something not a quicksell. Also theres no proof he received offers at all, let alone above 400, and even if he did, they could very easily have been hard sell hats.


              "The more rational decision would be to wait to see what i resell the hat for before repricing so that you actually have a legitimate sale to go for. This is also keeping in mind the valuations that the other two owners of the AF Modest that have purchased hats at considerably higher values than 280. I guess economics isn't one of your stronger subjects. But please be respectful of other people who spend their money into playing this game."

              The other owners bought their hats 5-6 years ago, so what they paid is irrelevant, hats aren't an investment, their prices rise and fall as the markets change, and even if this gets repriced at 280, should you sell for more, it can always be repriced based off your sale and get the price it "deserves" (thats the beauty of this site, its not a rulebook its a guideline which you can choose to follow/not follow). Also nice of you to assume that just because we have differing opinions i must not understand the slightest bit of economics.


              "And that High-Horse logic of, when that guy wants to sell he should be able to get the price he bought it for if its worth it, barely holds. Can we not pretend to be ignorant about the true power that backpack.tf holds over trading today as it enjoys uncontested monopoly? While we want to believe that people should use these prices as a guide, more than 90% people follow these prices as truth; and the ones who know better are us high tier traders, most of whom make bank by purchasing quicksells, miscs, halloweens, or Super Specific Hats. And i would like to believe this community is built to help all 100% through, not just the top 10% (Which i do find myself a part of as well)"

              Of course people are gonna treat bptf as a bible, but you don't have to trade them if they dont like how you value your hat. Obviously the higher the bp price of a hat the easier it is to sell for more (within reason), but that doesn't make it any more accurate, it just means that theres a higher likelyhood that someone overvalues the hat due to inexperience or whatnot and pays too much.


              "If this hat is truly deserving of a reprice of 280 according to a Moderator; Then i please urge the community to relook at pricing suggestion rules as this is resulting in us diminishing the size of the economy by ourselves, which leads to more people exiting, and that is risky not just for trading, but the website and community as well."

              1 hat dropping based off a "quicksell" isn't gonna kill the tf2/bptf community, if people want to leave tf2 then nothing will stop them.

                Its not about one hat. Rules are played with consistency. You start applying this at one place, then you gotta allow it everywhere.


                As for you saying theres no proof it sold fast....His list price was 400. Id like to see one point from you wher you can prove that the hat didnt get any offers worth 400 that would invalidate what im saying.


                This reprice isnt making the pricing accurate for anyone. I think its better to leave it till the hat resells. Its open for all the people to see what ive quickbought for. Let the resale decide whether the hat is worth 280 or 400 or 600....Anyways waiting on a mod to suggest here


                The only difference is that if the price was changed on the day of the trade on backpack listing, and it read 280 quickselling. and i bought it on the same day, it wouldnt be okay to price it at that price, because youll will point that it sold within a day. Its been done for multiple hats.

                Just because this came negotiated doesnt make it any less of a quicksell.


                Anyways, i will wait for the Mods to Respond. Meanwhile i am going to try speaking to the owner to do a retrade if this is the case. Because i wasnt aware that is what has been up on backpack these days. I think even he would agree that is is truly unfair. Then youll can go back to your open suggestion of 400 unsold. and after that passes. i can ask him to put quickselling 30% off and buy it, just to abide by your version of how the system should work. Would you prefer that?

          https://imgur.com/gallery/UVomYwK quicksell proof here. not just a claim he made. I came to see him first because he has buy quicksell in his name. At this point trading in tf2 is ****ed so I dont care anymore, that's why im willing to go for so low.


          mini I have for this is when I had the duped burning TC and someone offer me this hat (with some other items) and I used backpack.tf price for this hat. I been trading a lot dota items so I dont remember what other offer got for this hat.


            Can some moderator please reply to this. Ive got multiple people who come back quoting the Suggestion as the reason they want to stay away/

              I offer 281

              Bought For: https://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198181652993#!/compare/1548720000/1548892800


              Sale is very bulky, 8 months old and if anything would support a drop


              Guy Before Him Bought For : https://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198181652993#!/compare/1548374400/1548633600


              Again, sale is 8 months old and quite bulky, but it too would support a drop

                my trade btw. I don't know if there's a way to look up history of our chat but we're agreed on using backpack.tf price. and plus I cashed out all the keys from the unusual. Just another proof that I was just trying to quicksell and cash out for real money

                    How are these "Support a Drop". Please Explain the logic. Both sales are bulky, neither indicative of either.

                      #1 -


                      https://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198181652993#!/compare/1548720000/1548892800


                      Sold with spellbound jefe, dupe cmoon tc, beams pyro hood, hg gibus, burning mohawk and strange normal nade launcher for dupe burning tc


                      This is roughly 1800-2000 in adds for a dupe burning tc (which usually sell for 2000-2500 in unusuals depending on how good/bad they are). Even though this sale is really bulky and outdated, you brought it up, nonetheless, i'm confident that had it been indate it would support a lower value. Not bothering with minis as that gets me nothing but wasted time, but you're free to do so yourself


                      #2 -


                      https://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198181652993#!/compare/1548374400/1548633600


                      Sold with ~1400 in unusuals for gpan ( at the time was 1450 ) https://backpack.tf/suggestion/5c9066e7d381724c192bda7e


                      Obviously this is bulk and outdated, but the fact that someone was willing to use the hat in an overpay deal for a pan means that pure wise, they didn't value it at anywhere near bp price and were willing to indirectly take less, and if bptf's aim is to display pure values and pans are next to equivalent to pure, then yes this sale would support a drop. Even though outdated it shows that in the past the hat hasn't been valued at/traded at bp price

                          Yeah, because i felt that comment was harsh and unwarranted. hence i asked in a nicer way.

                          @Torb sold with 1400 in unsuals for a Gpan + Burning Boa right? Boa Was 500ish at the time of sale

                          Also while both sales are bulky, none of them can be cracked down to a supports drop. You are assuming in this that all overpay was on the AF Modest, and not the Sunbeams Pyromancers hood or anything of the sort.

                            Actually i got the sale wrong


                            sold alongside burning cotton head, burning mohawk, beams pyro hood and hg gibus for pan. The gibus then sold alongside the boa for the jefe.


                            Also all the hats there besides the af modest have vastly more recent prices hence why you can say it supports a drop. Obviously neither sale is directly usable since its hard to pinpoint a value on any of them, but the seller of it clearly didn't value it at bp price in pure, and neither do you

                              not saying that i value it at 575. But i definitely dont value it at 280. Else i wouldnt have quickbought it for that price. And as far as that goes, its better to leave a hat outdated than use a quicksell price on it and do an incorrect suggestion

                                Sure, you can "count" it as a "quicksale" in your book, but how the sale looks and from what the supportive outdated sales show, this is more then fine. If you got any truly needed information then please be free to post it, but keep your arguing out of here.

                                  How are they supporting? They dont triangulate down to 280. Not even remotely at that. And Vincentius, if you have such a problem with this why dont you keep your arguments out and wait out mods. Torb literally wrote above you that none of the sales are usable and neither do they pinpoint a value, but it looks like it desrves a drop.Your previous suggestion of 400, made sense, and basis that i quickbought this.


                                  Look at the sellers backback. It is Very Very Very clear he has cashed out. It was a quicksell. Stop being desparate to get one more point in your book of suggestions. Its actually shameful that you would do a wrong suggestion to get a point.

                                    Point 1 - The sales are supportive even if they are bulk and not usable, the give an idea for what the hat has sold for in the past even if its outdated/bulk.


                                    Point 2 - The hat was unsold for months at 400, that supports the drop even tho its not 280, if it cant get 400 in months then in what possible way should 280 be excluded. Yes is a 120 key difference, but on a almost 5 year old price, it screams highly outdated, this is better then current.

                                    If you feel like it can get more, then go for it but within the 20+ days you have owned it, I cant see any way that it supports this number being really low. No buyers counter and even if they were made now would not. You could easily say that you have been offered far more, and if thats the case, then why did you not take it.


                                    There is literally no proof that counters this, anyone could easily say "I quickbought it" or "I quicksold it", if you still want to prove this suggestion wrong, feel free and sell the hat. This suggestions is far from wrong with how everything has gone, from how I see it, you just dont want your hat to be downpriced to a better current value then one made by a collector years ago.


                                      Nothing about it was quick though. Quicksales are primarily based on the time factor of it selling, and if a seller lists it at a discount from bptf price (a 175 key one in this case) and it doesn't sell for 2 months, and then has to further discount from that price in order to get a sale, then that shows that bp price is not accurate, nor is the 400 keys he was unsold at and that 280 is not an unrealistic price. If it's truly worth more than 280, should you resell it it can be priced accordingly, but all evidence shows that it took a while to get 280, and 280 is better than its current price

                                        There is no evidence to show that it took a while to get 280 coz he never listed it at 280. Dude theres no evidence to even say that he tried hard to sell it....

                                        And your logic of why it cant get more sales...lets face it , you know very well why. The moment anyone opens suggestions like this, buyers go scared. They say, naah man its risky. Its circular logic. Need Sale to Price Hat, But No one wants to buy a hat with an Open suggestion on it. Matter of fact, most people dont even read into the details.

                      This is a tough one given the circumstances.


                      From my personal point of view, I could see this go either way - arguments for the suggestion here are primarily that it has been unsuccessfully listed significantly below its outdated value, strongly supporting a drop is warranted. Argument against would be that it sold below what it was listed at. The question then would be which of those factors weighs heavier in this decision. A way to look at it would be to notice that the difference between its outdated value and what it struggled to sell at (575-400) is larger than that between what it struggled to sell at and what it ended up selling for (400-280), which would point towards weighing the need for a drop heavier here.


                      First off, we're dealing with a heavily outdated hat here - one of which the price was set 6 years ago. Since the last bud crash it was only updated once, where the buyer went by its originally set value. I actually remember that situation because the person that bought it at the time asked me if it'd be a good deal; in the end he went with it because he wanted to get rid of his tipped lid. It is probably worth mentioning that even then, the person that paid the 575 resold it significantly lower, but at the time it was handled, two of the hats involved had no usable sales - using it in reverse would've set a mid-tier vivid soldier hat at 300 keys, well over what it was being resold for (and way more than the ~60 ish it eventually sold for), just to give you an indication of magnitude there. This of course does not really matter for the outcome of this suggestion, but I suppose some extra insight in when and how its outdated price was set could be helpful.


                      Before the final verdict I want to clear up a few things, as the comment section has heavy discussions going on. I'll attempt to address as many as possible here in the hopes that the final decision can be understood as best it can.


                      " Deserves a drop? By what logic. I saw this unrealistic suggestion of dropping it to 400, from a seller who has played tf2 maybe once in the last 2 months, was looking to quicksell. I talked him down further to a price of 280. Even my profile name exclusively reads Buying Quicksells"

                      The logic behind the drop here is that it struggled to sell significantly below current, typically an indication that a hat is currently priced too high. As for the rest of the comment - don't forget that backpack.tf aims to reflect a hat's selling potential in pure. For this purpose, a pure sale is typically the best you can get. For this reason it generally doesn't really matter whether or not the seller is still playing or even actively trading (or whether his name reads Quickselling or any of the sort, for that matter). Someone that is cashing out can also take their time, and I'd say 2 months is a solid time frame. The term "quickselling" is what generally leads to confusion here: someone advertising their hats as quicksales do not necessarily have their sales disqualified for suggestion purposes, since even someone that lists his hats as quicksales can take a long time to sell. The discount given is also not necessarily a reason to exclude their sales - the entire point of the discount is that it would give potential buyers an incentive to take the hat off his hands, something that can still be unsuccessful.

                      Negotiating someone down from their original listing price generally isn't indicatory of a sale being too low, but rather that their listed price was more than they were actually willing to take. Given circumstances where the difference is really steep I suppose there's something to say for it, especially if someone impulsively decided to sell (for instance because they needed cash fast) there would be something to say for it, but given that the seller has been trying to get rid of their hat for a long time already, that doesn't really seem to be the case here. Arguably the fact that the last suggestion was made could be seen as a reason for him impulsively selling it (perhaps something that was even used in negotiating the price down?), in which case I suppose the suggestion helped him find a more appropriate price to aim for.

                      In general, in situations where a hat sold fast it is better to look at how the sale relates to other data points rather than to only look at how long it took to sell. On hats with multiple sales I generally prefer to define low outliers based on their deviation from the mean, using the fact that it was sold fast as an additional indicator that a sale could be low, typically used to remove a low end from a suggestion rather than to invalidate a complete suggestion, since if everyone sells a hat fast, and no higher sales occur, then that value is still the common trading point.


                      "So are you saying don't buy any hat that is outdated for pure, because at no price will it be a quicksell? Because this was 30% lower than his listed price. Which would by definition make it a Quicksell. The same hat if the seller had just changed his listing to quickselling for 280 on backpack.tf and i had bought it in the same day, would not pass...because "Sold within a day" logic which has been used over and again. But the same logic for a negotiated quicksell does not hold? why is that?"

                      Partially addressed above already - their lowered price does not make it a quicksell by definition. The statement that it would not go through if it was listed at 280 for a day is not true. Generally if a seller lowers their price until they sell, one could argue they "quicksold" for the amount they listed at at the very last day, while in reality, they were just lowering because they failed to sell at higher values (in most cases values below current). It seems like most arguments made put too much weight on the "definition of a quicksale", which, for suggestion purposes is not a very clear one if you want to use it as sole argument to remove a sale from a suggestion; this is because there is no one true definition for it that'd always hold: it would always come with a set of ifs and buts that make it situational. Relying on that and only that for your rationale usually does not hold.


                      "Furthermore, a sale of 280 as a quickbuy leaves way too much into the air of uncertainty. And for convenience of just having things updated, you have then essentially decided to wipe 300*3 = 1620$ From the economy; Just because someone, and i repeat this, quickbought an outdated hat."

                      How come it would leave uncertainty? is it not sure whether or not it sold for 280? is the actual sale 280 +- a certain error? Usually, uncertainty around values happens when the hats something sold for have huge ranges or actual sales that range from much lower to much higher than the suggested range. Sales that explicitly do not suffer from this are pure sales, since there is no doubt that 280 keys equals 280 keys. This is also why the site strives to go by pure values, as they are the most fair way to compare prices across the board (since keys are used as currency and have a set value, in this case the unit value 1).

                      The second part I do not really understand. Why would it wipe anything from the economy, and even if it did, why would it be 300*3? what's the 300, what's the 3? and even then, 300*3 is not 1620. As a general reply to the concept of wiping money from the economy by accepting a lower suggestion: please be aware that the values here are suggested values; they do not mean the hat equals a certain amount of keys or a certain amount of cash (i.e you can't bring this hat to a store and convert it to 575*keyprices in money units, and this suggestion passing doesnt mean that said store would now convert it to 280*keyprice in money units). No "value" was lost; quite literally in this case: 280 keys were paid, and the new price would be 280 keys.


                      "And that High-Horse logic of, when that guy wants to sell he should be able to get the price he bought it for if its worth it, barely holds. Can we not pretend to be ignorant about the true power that backpack.tf holds over trading today as it enjoys uncontested monopoly? While we want to believe that people should use these prices as a guide, more than 90% people follow these prices as truth; and the ones who know better are us high tier traders, most of whom make bank by purchasing quicksells, miscs, halloweens, or Super Specific Hats. And i would like to believe this community is built to help all 100% through, not just the top 10% (Which i do find myself a part of as well)"

                      I see the point you're trying to make, but it does not work as an argument for you here actually; if anything it works like an argument against you. You're basically claiming here that you would prefer to keep the outdated prices here in the hopes that most of the market will see it as a true value, even though it should be clear that it is not.

                      As a high tier trader I would then challenge you to provide me with experience, knowledge or otherwise relevant insights that would prove why you'd think the hat should be 575. If I'm going to look at the situation here I actually think that trading knowledge/analytics on past trends/tier comparison etc. would point towards the fact that a drop is needed; you're dealing with a 4 year old price (that as said was already too high when it was set); other modests have since dropped by a fairly decent amount, partially due to a huge depreciation in allclass hat values due to mass-unboxing from multiclass crates. Even hats that weren't unboxed by masses were influenced since people typically got alternatives. Tier comparisons show AF at the top of the charts, well over effects that are typically higher tier. 280 is far more on par with RA, a comparable effect. I'm not saying any of these rationales weigh for the suggestion itself, but if we're going to argue outside of backpack.tf pricing rules and guidelines, I do not see a strong case being made here.

                      As for the monopoly situation - you're free to personally value hats higher/lower than the prices set here. You're even free to set up your own pricing site if you think our ways are not the right ones.


                      " But if the same hat i would wait a week for your suggestion to accept at 400 and bought at 280 you would call it a quicksell. Please recognize the flaws in your logic here rather than being arrogant and asking me to not post my opinions on a public forum. Im questioning the logic of dropping it to 280.

                      This is actually not true, and the main reason why I am not a fan of dropping items based on buyouts alone. Most of the time, a buyout drop still gives a hat a value that is too high, only now with the idea that its price is current. A BO-dropped hat should not really be considered in-date, and if it actually sells, the value it sells at is way better an indication of the hat's actual value, as would have been the case here.


                      "Your previous suggestion of 400, made sense, and basis that i quickbought this."

                      While I fully believe you bought it based on that suggestion, this statement is kind of misplaced, since on both this suggestion and on the actual suggestion at 400 you clearly state that you thought the suggestion was ridiculous.


                      "quicksell proof here. not just a claim he made. I came to see him first because he has buy quicksell in his name.

                      I don't see quicksell proof there, I just see trade negotiations (and not even full ones). It also strikes me as odd that you'd have come to him first, since the other suggestion seems to indicate he came to you to buy it after he saw the suggestion.


                      Most other things I wanted to refer to are old sales used to serve as an indication. There are too many of those to quote, so Ill just do it like this.

                      Note that for setting a price, neither sale is usable. For trying to put everything in perspective, they can be useful. In general, if something sells with approximately 1400 in adds for a pan (priced at 1450), it generally indicates current is way too high on an item of this tier. It is not uncommon for traders to dump hard to sell hats like that on pure or close-to-pure items, potentially alongside more currently priced items to get at least some pure out of the hard-to-sell hat. Since the sale is so old it generally does not matter in this case, but if an item is exclusively used to overpay by large amounts for close-to-pure items or huge upgrades for popular items, it is a low-key indicator that the hat's current price is too high. You are correct in stating that they do not support 280 as a value per say, but they do support the fact that a drop is probably warranted.


                      After discussion with other moderators we've decided to report the sale as is here, based on solid evidence indicating the drop here is warranted. Should it end up selling for more, a new suggestion can always be made to reprice it again.