Price Suggestion
Refined Metal
Submitted by Scary Johnson
~$0.027
Unique Refined Metal
1010 votes up
969 votes down
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Comments

UPBOAT ALL SHIPS TO STARBARD


Long overdue

    inb4 massive long-winding arguments once more


    upvote, well needed.

      I thought .21 was a quicksell

        When was that determined?

          From last suggestion:

          Quoting SeatyPalms comment:


          ' 0.21

          This is the price I've been selling at. I get lots and lots of requests at this price, selling over 300 to one person at a time. I feel like this might be the quicksell, bulk price that sellers use when they have too much refined (myself included) and want to make a deal (if you buy 100, 0.21 each) '

            For one thing, if it was a quicksell at the time it definitely isn't now with the abundance of $.21 sellers. Also I don't recall him really proving those sales.

              I agree with = ocu = [TWP]


              "The market wouldn't have changed if it wasn't for the suggestion. Nothing new happened between now and 4 days ago in TF2. Suggestions are causing artificial changes."


              Clearly downvote because the price was manipulated.

                "Manipulated"


                Stop.

            It was never said that 0.21 was a quicksell. Besides, the market has changed since 4 days ago, so your point is invalid.

              The market wouldn't have changed if it wasn't for the suggestion. Nothing new happened between now and 4 days ago in TF2. Suggestions are causing artificial changes.

            In my opinion, the previous suggestion seemed that it would pass, but you went ahead and closed it.


            Let's see if this works a second time. Good luck with the new suggestion.

              personally, i liked the range from the previous suggestion more

                I assumed the mods refusal to accept my previous suggestion was supposed to be a hint. Too bad they didn't use their words and tell me why they were dragging ass with it.

                  They tend to do that a lot...


                  *Still waits for his suggestion*

                    Currency suggestions, especially for Refined price in USD always take a while to get accepted as the Mods review all the counterproof/supporting proof that accumulates in the comments over the days.

                    It was about 50:50.

                    Honestly the other suggestion looked a lot better than this. I feel as though 0.22 should be in the range.

                      There's barely any sellers for $.22 now.

                      Your offer is still based on a few trades on outpost. Contrary to what you think, the majority of cash trades for currencies happen on sites like sourceop and tf2trader (or at least are registered on those sites in some fashion), due to their strict reputation regulations. Users often get +rep, containing information of the sales. People go to those sites to find trustworthy traders, and avoid scams. New traders often sell their items for cheaper in order to build up some reputation, while more reputable traders (may) sell for higher (for instance, I have recently sold 556 refined metal for $0.25 each - via: http://forums.sourceop.com/threads/161454-Keys-1-90-Buds-34-Ref-0-25

                      The rep will appear when a SourceOP mod approves it here: http://forums.sourceop.com/threads/155408-ocu-s-Rep-Thread )


                      As for your proofs:

                      $.20:

                      http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/21602780 -> This post is against outpost rules. The user has no reputation thread linked either. Very risky, hence low price.


                      $.21

                      http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/21525872 -> Trade already closed.

                      http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/23131850 -> Trade already closed.

                      http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17588815 -> Last time he sold ref and got +rep was 7 months ago

                      http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/20125821 -> legit

                      http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/15565942 -> legit

                      http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/22589282 -> legit


                      You're trying to price the most commonly traded currency of TF2 based on just 3 legitimate traders. Please find more TF2-Trader and SourceOP trades (both in and out of your range) and list them to convince us. So far, I am not convinced with the proof you've provided.


                      Just out of curiosity, have you ever sold any pure for cash?

                        I myself have provided all usable sellers from Tf2 - trader and SoucrceOP. From Tf2 - Trader... I found only two usable ones and the rest are either highballers or the same user from Outpost posting on that site. From SourceOp....Well, lets just say its filled with highballers and invalid and unusable sellers not to mention, again...Same seller from Outpost/Bazaar. Leaving the proof with...


                        All of the links I provided, the last time I checked on those two sites was about two days ago. If you think I have missed any usable links from my proof, feel free to add. ^-^


                        Also, I don't believe you sold any ref for $.0.25 if you did, you will be counted as outlier. There are many sellers saying that it is close to impossible to sell at $0.24 - $0.25 (See last suggestion).

                          Are you accusing me of price manipulation? "I don't believe" is blatant accusation. Please watch your tongue.


                          If I did sell for $0.25, it would not be counted as an outlier, because you have no proof of actual sales. Only sellers.


                          I am not saying the price should be $0.25. I am saying that this suggestion, as well as the previous attempt, is too weak for such an important currency.

                            I never said manipulation...Where does the word manipulation even come from here. Haha...The hell? I own close to 100 ref myself. All I am saying is that.... You're just saying you sold over 500 at $0.25 without providing screenshots or anything sort of that. Anyone can say that. Even if you provide solid proof of the sale, your sale will definitely be counted as outlier. Again, Sweaty Palms and many others already said its close to impossible to sell at $0.25. If you don't see how it won't, I don't know what else to say.


                              This is a price suggestion, and I provided you what you might call it a counterproof, and you implied that I am lying. That implies a manipulation attempt. Please do some background checks before blaming people. I am not a mindless kid with a keyboard.


                              I am not going to share my personal information on Paypal with screenshots, and showing you a trade of refined metal would not prove anything. I have updated my post with links to my trade thread and reputation thread that will get updated when a moderator approves the sale. That is more proof than anything I can see in this suggestion so far.

                                You really have short temper... Like I said, even if you sold at that price, your sale will be counted as outlier. Whether you take your sale as outlier or not, its up to you but majority of people here will.


                                I will stop the discussion here since I see you already lost your temper. Good luck.

                              You don't need sales to drop price (They help but they are not must). Please see old accepted suggestions...

                              http://backpack.tf/vote/id/53707b474cd7b8bd118b4a22

                              http://backpack.tf/vote/id/53579bae4dd7b834798b49fe

                              http://backpack.tf/vote/id/530079854dd7b8002f8b4568

                                  The first link you've provided has plenty of proof, both on outpost and other sites.


                                  On the 2nd link, a moderator made this comment:

                                  "While you are at it, post also links from source-op, tf2-trader and other trading forums/sites."

                                  - -».•´Woifilicious`•.«- · posted 6 months ago · Score: 7

                                  And the suggester has provided additional links afterwards.


                                  During the third link, SourceOP was closed if I recall correctly. Similar points to what I've been talking about is also discussed there.


                                  I can see another moderator coming here and saying the same things again.

                                    That is because those are almost half a year old suggestions. Things have changed drastically over the last 5 to 6 months. Again, I have provided all usable sellers.


                                    You say to provide more links, but when I ask you to help out and see if I missed any, you come back insulting me and all without providing extra links.

                                      I don't recall insulting you, if I offended you, I'm sorry. As for the links, please read my posts.

                                        My apologies as well if I offended you, just trying to state the facts. Good luck sir! ^=^

                                          In answer to your question ocu, no, niether of them have ever done a single cash transaction.

                                          I congratulate you on attempting to educate these two about how rep can influence the price of an item in cash trading, and how outpost is not the primary site of cash trading, but I feel it will fall on deaf ears.

                                          Feel free to add me at your convinience, you deserve a free key for at least trying...

                                            I myself did few cash transaction on my old account, but lost that account info and all, sadly, I was not very careful at the beginning but that have changed completely now. Been on steam since the day it was released. As for now, I can't do cash transaction because of where I live currently, paypal is not supported or doesn't work. You don't know if I did cash transactions or not.


                                            As for you claiming, the suggester (Red) don't know shit.... When this top contributor created this suggestion, he had never done any cash transaction and provided over 95% of his proof on Outpost at that time.

                                            http://backpack.tf/vote/id/53579bae4dd7b834798b49fe


                                            This guy did cash transaction and still provided over 95% of his links of Outpost.

                                            http://backpack.tf/vote/id/530079854dd7b8002f8b4568


                                            As for Outpost not being primary or not...You do know most users both on Tf2 - trader and SourceOP comes from Outpost, right? If you look, you will end up finding same thread/trade on Outpost they have on Tf2 - trader and SourceOP. Are they more liable than Outpost when it comes to cash transactions? Yes, but here as you can see I provided all rounded proof, including from Tf2 - Trader and SourceOP. I could have eliminated some of those Outpost trades and provided their Tf2 - trader and SourceOP version. Since I provided their Outpost trade, I can't provide their thread on Tf2 - trader and SourceOP because then those links will be counted as dupes and invalid. Its better to provide all rounded proof than provide one sided proof. I myself will keep this in mind from future on...If and when I do ref suggestion or support/go against a ref suggestion... I will gladly post both Outpost and the other sites of a single trader(if they posted a thread on Tf2 - trader and SourceOP that is) to make people like you from stopping with the hate comments.


                                            You could have said or posted that comment much nicer and mature way but you decided to choose the latter.


                                            In conclusion...Please stop with the indirect and direct insults. If you have problem with the system, make a thread on the forums, don't insult users like this. Good luck. ^-^

                                              I believe that your last comment will be -10 or more within a few hours given that people here are getting to learn the facts of the arguement from this suggestion AND the prior one. I think people are kinda getting sick of hearing it but lets review it again shall we? Just incase people missed or dont understand the points about the given proof and what you have said. -puts on reading glasses-


                                              Your last cash transaction was 2 years ago, if we are to believe you. [Since you implied in your prior comments someone with 10months sourceop rep is a liar I am sure it is perfectly alright to hit the ball back to you so to speak]

                                              I suppose you dont know your old sourceop rep so I/you/anyone could look it up and show you actually did some cash transactions from 2 years plus ago.


                                              -sigh- 8 months ago sourceop cash trading section was taken offline for over 8 weeks, and bazaar / tf2 trader cash trading sections were still in its infancy as all the sites clammered to attempt to fill the hole which sourceop temporarily left. [I think even bp.tf started its "trust" rating around then now I think about it]

                                              You know this.. you have been told this in the last suggestion and anyone reading this can go back and check... [insert dramatic pause to allow people to go back and check] Holy cucumber sticks batman!, it even says it in the link you provided [another pause].. by me none other... saying that it was the wrong time to attempt a suggestion on metal only days after sourceop had gone down and he should wait until it returns to gather more proof

                                              Please stop twisting things like that... of course he used outpost, he had nothing else to go on at the time. It is kinda sad to see you attempt to manipulate facts like that and I think everyone who was doing cash trading at the time and remembers it will find you very silly for trying to use that as a point of debate.


                                              As for D0's lack of reputation, you are absolutely right on that one. (Funny I mentioned on -that- suggestion that people with 0 cash experience should have no place suggesting ref price too!) Im going to actually like your prior message just for that (seriously), he didn't have any reputation or experience in cash trading at all when he suggested it :)

                                              Then again.... concidering he attempts to gather fake rep on bp.tf and has a caution on Steamrep for it.. https://forum.harpoongaming.com/threads/tf2-server-ban-appeal-76561198031258757-marcusd0.7982/

                                              And was flagged by valve for trading in carded keys 1 year ago.. (http://www.reddit.com/r/SteamGameSwap/comments/1a6ewm/h_100_tf2_keys_w_games_i_do_not_own_with_price/)

                                              Im not suprised he has only just started to do cash trading now.

                                              Even still, valid point.


                                              As for your outpost links, totally accept the fact that many outpost cash trades have threads on bazaar/sourceop/tf2trader also. Completely accepted

                                              However it still comes down to, as OCU said... the fact that the price suggested (0.21$) comprises of 4 links. [ He said 3 but is inaccurate at time of this posting ]

                                              You yourself have said "I myself have provided all usable sellers from Tf2 - trader and SoucrceOP"


                                              Concidering the entire arguement of 0.21 being the valid "common traded price" is 4 links (4 valid links out of all the proof of 0.21 and under. One has less than 10 refined, another one has 19 refined) It hardly seems much evidence at all now you think about it....


                                              You could have said or posted your comments on this suggestion with some more factual evidence to support a common trading price of $0.21 if it was there to be posted and would have gotten alot more support from all, and I might have been much nicer and mature about it but you decided to imply someone with 10 months notable cash reputation, who commented here and has actually sold refined, a liar, and let someone waste an hour of his time explaining to everyone here how 4 links is not much of a case.


                                              In conclusion, this suggestion has been debunked, 4 valid links at 0.21 or lower is far too weak evidence to make it a common trading point. (and please stop trying to say Im insulting you buddy, it is getting kinda annoying, I will happily point out the flaws in someones arguement wether it is you, or my best friend. It is nothing personal I just think neither you, nor the OP have the amount evidence or experience required to back up this suggestion <3 )


                                              Q&A

                                              [Because I can imagine some common faux points being used in an upcomming comment to justify why people should upvote this suggestion and get it accepted and I do not want this entire suggestion flooded with back and forths between myself and Plaxorous, as much as I love him :) ]


                                              Q: But Hunion.. the refined market is SO small, 4 links should be more than enough.. shouldnt it?

                                              A: No. Stop letting these people fool you by telling you something and taking their word for it, go and actually have a look at the threads, study the reputation threads closely and check the amount of refined sold by each individual. People with large trusted reputation sell refined at a higher price and you can see that yourself. You can also concider marketplace.tf and the amount of sales of refined it does at higher prices.. Why marketplace is excluded in proof but people with 2 year old rep threads are allowed I do not know, some people must think long term cash traders regularly lose their accounts.. but that is the way people want it to be ^_^


                                              Q: Hunion, you keep (annoyingly most probably) mentioning people with no actual experience in cash trading should not attempt to make a suggestion on refined, why is that?

                                              A: Well my dearies it is quite simple, people who do suggestions in this manner only have a snapshot mindset. People with no cash trading experience have no "feel" for the cash market and are happy to spam you with a dozen or so (four.. in this case) valid links to prove their range. How much refined have these people sold? Are they regular refined sellers or are they just trying to get some pocket money to pay off a utilities bill? Who knows? :) YOU don't know until you check the links yourself, study their rep threads, the amounts sold and then make a judgement instead of blindly voting based off of number of links provided. Many of you may be thinking by now, "Check the repthreads and value up the amounts sold and at what price? Hunion you crazy I don't have time for that! I have school\work\wife\real life\pet cacti to deal with!" and that is exactly why currency suggestions should be left to people who live and breathe it on a day to day basis, people who can give you an accurate suggestion right off the bat, based off their long term knowledge instead of someone who has not done a single cash trade in his life! Simple huh? :)


                                              Q: Many of the links of the higher range in the previous suggestion [which are now included in this suggestion at the adjusted price] dropped their price recently, does that support this suggestion?

                                              A: No, what you are seeing is called psychological trending. You may be familiar with it in terms of keys being bought/sold for refined, so allow me to simplify for a quick answer. Have you noticed how when a new pending suggestion for a rise of key price occurs the lower end of the previous currently accepted price becomes even more difficult to find than it was currently? That is psychological trending. People -expect- an outcome before it occurs, and react accordingly, buying up the lower end en-mass in anticipation of a profit. The reverse is true on downpricing, people attempt to sell at a lower price than originally posted in anticipation of a loss before a downpricing suggestion is even accepted.


                                              Q: So what you are saying is $0.25 is an accurate price and there shouldn't be a suggestion? Right?

                                              A: No, $0.25 has not been seen since the breadbox update and before then, it was lower than $0.25. I believe refined price needs to be adjusted, but I do not think 4 links of 0.21 or lower should justify lowering it to that price ;)


                                              Q: Hunion why you so mean to plaxorous? I downvote you now!

                                              A: I love him to bits, he tries his best, works hard and on many occasions gets pricing suggestions and his arguements spot on!


                                              Q: Will you get warned or banned for this comment? I fear for you Hunion!

                                              A: I cannot see why, giving an opinion on price suggestions is not welcome, but debating the validity of links, counterpoints and on the suggestion itself is allowed.

                                                I nearly shit my pants when I saw all of those lines of text and then successfully shit my pants when I realized it wasn't spam.

                                                In relation to some of the things mentioned in this very lengthy response;

                                                1. What makes you say only 4 valid links to support my price?

                                                2. If nobody with cash experience suggested on this before, what makes you believe they will now? If someone with experience in trading refined metal does come to me and tells me he has a better range to suggest, I would happily leave it to them.


                                                Nobody seems to have provided anything but text to try to disprove my suggestion, so until a mod gives his insight about the matter (which I'm still waiting for) I don't see any reason to close this.

                                                  If I cared about the like/dislike system, I don't think I would provide my insight at all. Those two buttons are useless and extremely abused and should be replaced with something better from what I can see. No wonder YouTube removed that system on their site and replaced it with something else.


                                                  1st point : I never said I supported the change sudden change Red had with re-suggesting at $0.21 flat.


                                                  2nd point : I highly suggest you to help me out if you really think there are more usable links other than the ones I posted, like I have said to TWP, I last checked on those sites 2 days ago. If you find usable sellers, feel free to post it because when I looked around Outpost, Bazaar, Tf2 - trader and SourceOP, those are the usable ones I could find (If I didn't miss any by mistake).


                                                  3rd point : Marketplace.tf is never considered as proof here. Marketplace is more of an automated site and automated sites like scrap.tf, marketplace.tf isn't really considered proof. Not to mention, almost everything on that site is highballed to hell. Its not me saying, this is how it works here.

                                                  .

                                                  4th point : I am not going to go against you and say backpack does not run the market like others would here. It definitely has a part on it and it has been proven. This is not a bad thing, just something that we should all agree on. As mentioned by buddhapest : "bp.tf is a trend driver, but not a trend setter."


                                                  5th point : Like I said, I am not supporting nor disapproving the flat drop at $0.21, I was more supporting the range than I do this one. I am in the grey zone on this one. You keep saying 4 links shouldn't do this and that but as I am asking you to provide sellers if I am missing any. That is all I could find for $0.21 - $0.25. Those are the usable sellers, others are highballers, invalid sellers, completely unbumped, or away or just not usable for proof.


                                                  6th point : If you have problem with the system, I suggest you to post a request on Website Suggestions on the forums. This is how system works and has been working here.


                                                  7th point : You and TWP keep mentioning about having few links, but fail to provide more usable sellers. This is the current market as far as what I have seen, if I missed any include it on the suggestion.


                                                  8th point :Thank you, I try to stay in the facts. ^-^


                                                  9th and last point : I don't see why you would get warned for this comment. You shouldn't as far as I can see, we are both on topic after all. :P

                                                    Much text, such quickness. I will attempt to make a response which clarifies some of the points from both of you after lunch, including how the burden of proof lies soley on the suggestor's shoulders in regards to the amount initially and subsequently provided in a suggestion, not the reader. =)

                                                      Sorry lads, went to lunch, came back and decided to rest instead of making a response. Here it is better late than never.

                                                      Please bare in mind, little drunk and kind of annoyed I have had to spend 90minutes of my time to do the work of the suggestor to provide people with facts on proven sales, instead of some half assed attempts to throw links at people and cry "PROOF TO THE CONTRARY PLEASE"

                                                      If this sort of thoroughness had been done in the beginning the suggestion would not have even been made.


                                                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


                                                      I went through all 4 of the active/valid threads of 0.21$ or lower. The only one which had ANY proof of sales in the past month was Arkylon. (If the OP feels I have missed an active thread of 0.21 or lower, and can provide proof of sales in a rep thread I will happily duplicate his findings in a post below this one so people can see all the evidence in one place.)


                                                      ***

                                                      $0.21

                                                      ***


                                                      http://forums.sourceop.com/threads/159589-Akrylon-s-Rep-Thread/page2


                                                      50 refined.


                                                      I THEN went through all active/valid threads of 0.22 or higher.


                                                      ***

                                                      $0.22

                                                      ***


                                                      http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/22834011 ( http://forums.sourceop.com/threads/139313-quot-vincent177-reputation-thread-quot/page3 )


                                                      150 refined


                                                      http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/22987756 ( http://www.steamtrades.com/user/lugiamaster4 )


                                                      163 refined


                                                      http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16142610 [ http://forums.sourceop.com/threads/153503-GAG-s-Rep-Thread/page3 ]


                                                      51 refined at $0.23 (30 days ago, probably a little old for use since he had adjusted price recently from 0.23 to 0.22 for <100 refined so it has been put in proof of $0.22 to avoid arguement ;) )

                                                      [ http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=26343.15 ]

                                                      30 refined recently


                                                      http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=31799.0 [ http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=30849.0 ]

                                                      1 refined just under a month ago (Yes, ONE refined, I didn't want people trying to say I did not put in effort and do a decent job of giving people proven sales)


                                                      ***

                                                      $0.23

                                                      ***

                                                      http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=31175.0 [ http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=30453.msg118252#msg118252 ]


                                                      161 refined


                                                      ***

                                                      $0.25

                                                      ***


                                                      http://forums.sourceop.com/threads/155408-ocu-s-Rep-Thread/page3


                                                      556 refined


                                                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


                                                      Please bare in mind readers, that if plaxorous, the OP, or even yourself concider the 0.25 an outlier (why would you when it accounts for more than 40% of the proven sales but this has to be said just in case) that the amount at 0.22-0.23 vastly outnumbers the 50 refined at 0.21


                                                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


                                                      This is the type of PROOF which should be looked at, amounts sold, at what price, verified by addition of rep on a rep thread.


                                                      Now onto the points raised in the above comments


                                                      1) That is nice to hear plaxorous, perphaps with the above verifiable proof you will concider your position and endose a downvote of this suggestion

                                                      2) Links with verifiable proof have been provided which have given readers the actual picture of the refined market based off of actual sales which can be proven rather than links at a price without confirmation of sales, which neglects to include amount of rep [which influences price].

                                                      3) Marketplace.tf is less automated than one might imagine, someone in the background verifies orders before they are processed.. In that respect one can wait a little while initially before recieving items paid for. If it is acceptable to include automated bots for price suggestions of other items, there is no valid reason to not include it here. The fact that the pricing on marketplace.tf is higher is valid, but that is it "highballed" is your opinion. Nevertheless I did not include the hundreds of refined sales from marketplace.tf to appease the current meta (Besides it was not nessecary as you can see above)

                                                      4) A discussion for the forums perphaps, suffice to say there is very little distinction between a trend driver and a trend setter in price suggestions. That the current system of pricing is flawed; in that a trend is created (the driver) and confirmed (the setter) by users guessing (the driver) on a price adjustment before it has been confirmed / accepted (the setter) is my -opinion- and shared by many people.

                                                      5) Same as 2. Hopefully this post helps.

                                                      6) Not entirely sure which prior point you were refering to, nevertheless Im sure it has been said before by people who have attempted to explain how the system is flawed, including in 4). Wether it is "working" is a point of debate we could spend hours on :)

                                                      7) Same as 2. Hopefully this post helps.

                                                      8) You are very welcome, you try to stay in the facts but I believe from time to time the interpretation is wrong. No offence intended of course <3

                                                      9) Woop.


                                                      Hope this clarifies points and stops the original poster, and yourself plaxorous, shouting at readers to give proof of sales higher than the suggested price.

                                                      The burden of proof lies on the -suggestor- .. the fact that he has not done a great job of providing that verifiable proof of sales and has asked others to provide it, has forced me to do so for the sake of informing people and allowing them to make a more informed decision.

                                                        You provided the exact same links that I provided in my comment at the very beginning. You don't need sales when dropping (As you can see on past accepted suggestions) but they can definitely help of course as you have shown. Look at the previous suggestions how others posted it. I don't see any difference to how I have posted it. If you have problem with me, you have problem with d0, KoDorin, SkylineZ and many others who have suggested Ref prices before. I myself support of providing both sales and sellers when doing ref suggestion. If you want ref to be priced differently, I am telling you again...Please create a thread about it instead of blaming me for doing what others have done since beginning. Now lets get to the point shall we?


                                                        ...So, all of the links are the links I provided just that you went to their rep thread to provide more info such as sales and such.


                                                        1.) Nope, I am not going to use any of the buttons on this suggestion. I will stay in the grey zone till the end when a mod throws out a comment here before accepting/rejecting this suggestion. However, as you have shown... $0.21 - $0.22 should be the range. Which I believed since the time he suddenly decided to change it to $0.21 .


                                                        2.) Again, please create a thread if you are that against of how ref are being priced here. I am just following a trend here. If you want to change the system, create a thread on Website Suggestions on the forums.


                                                        3.) Who said bots are counted as proof? If you look in my key suggestions, I tend to use as less bots as I can until or unless the bots are buying above market price even then I try to limit myself on that. Bots are not considered valid, thus sites like scrap.tf and marketplace.tf are not counted at all. This point has been brought up here on backpack before and declined as far as I can recall.


                                                        4.) Not going into that. Sorry

                                                        5.) Alrighty, see my reply on #2

                                                        6.) The point that you are having trouble with.

                                                        7.) Alrighty, see my reply on #2 (Again)

                                                        8.) Alrighty

                                                        9.) ...


                                                        That is the point of suggestions. As much as the suggester has to do the work, if a voter highly thinks the suggester's suggestion is wrong. The suggester will definitely ask you to provide proof and a voter should. I have done so, when I supported or disapproved any suggestions, I don't see why anyone else should have problem and feel "forced".


                                                        Last but not at least, where were you, TWP and Chicken when d0, KoDorin suggested? I don't see any one of you posting anything against their past suggestions on this. I have done what they have done, provided current stock of sellers and such, just following the norm or how past suggesters have been suggesting this. If you believe it should be much more than that, go give it a try and throw a suggestion on this matter. Thanks for providing thorough reply.

                                                          -sigh- This back the forth seems to be taking a darker tone, and I was hoping for a nice sensible debate based on facts


                                                          Correct, I provided the exact same links as the OP and yourself, except I allowed people to see how much refined at any given price WAS ACTUALLY SOLD without them having to spend time and look for themselves. If you have proof of sold at the lower end, please provide it.

                                                          You have also been told countless times that in a cash currency suggestion, sales help alot more than just a bunch of links at a certain price. This isnt a normal trade where you buy some paint for 2 refined from some dude, Reputation of cash transactions is factored into the pricing of this item and therefore the stated price on the links is not a full indicator. I would not expect someone who has not done a cash trade in over 2 years to understand that.

                                                          I have no problem with you or anyone else (for god sake stop saying that its getting really rediculous to use as a point of arguement) I provided the VERERFIABLE PROOF of sales at a range higher than is suggested here. All I have done here is give detail to a bunch of links spammed by you and the original poster at readers who most probably do not want to spend the time looking into each link.


                                                          If you would like people to support this suggestion of 0.21, please bolster the arguement for it by providing PROOF OF SALES at 0.21, so far all that has been shown is a massive disparity between what has been suggested, and what has actually been sold.

                                                          If you do not support the suggestion then go and make a suggestion you agree with or provide the information to people, like I have, which disputes this price suggestion. [I am doing the latter]


                                                          Quote- ""However, as you have shown... $0.21 - $0.22 should be the range. Which I believed since the time he suddenly decided to change it to $0.21 .""

                                                          Please do yourself the favour of rereading the verified sales shown above, and you will find 0.22-0.23 is clearly what was represented.

                                                          $0.21 : 50refined ~~ $0.22 : 394 refined ~~ $0.23 : 161 refined

                                                          Conclusion~ Math is love, math is life.

                                                          How you think I have shown $0.21-$0.22 is beyond me darling... I should have added some more squiggly lines and a conclusion at the end.


                                                          1) Good on you for not using buttons, buttons suck :3 Didnt imply you would use buttons, implied you would see the validity of a higher range than $0.21 - $0.22. As I have shown.. mentioned it a few lines up but sometimes it takes more than once to sink in, what I have shown is verifiable sales, with the majority being at $0.22 - $0.23

                                                          2) No Mr trend setter/driver/follower (whatever), you know what I think I will post detail on links provided by the suggestor here instead of a forum which garnishes 10% of the traffic. For people reading and voting on these suggestions it is important they see what links are valid and what can be proven as sold so they can make an informed decision without having to spend 2 hours looking through the links.

                                                          3) -sigh- I have waited 1 hour so you cannot edit what you just said. "Bots are not considered valid" "I tend to not use as less bots as I can unless the bots are buying above the market price"

                                                          One or the other darling, either you use them as proof or you do not regardless of what they are buying or selling at. Otherwise Marketplace.tf is valid despite selling at above the market price. Frankly if you have the cheek to admit you use them despite knowing they are not valid, it is abit rich of you to state bots selling at above the suggested range is not allowed here sweetheart. And you are saying this DESPITE the fact I have not provided the actual numbers of refined that marketplace.tf has sold recently.. I am happy to go and get them for people to see regardless of wether it is valid or not, if you can get away with linking bots on occasions then why not here.

                                                          4) No worries, my position is clear, so is yours, we could bore each other to death trying to convince people eitherway <3

                                                          5) Alrighty, see my reply on 2#

                                                          6) See 2#

                                                          7) See 2#

                                                          8) Yup

                                                          9) Woop.


                                                          That is the point of currency suggestions. As much as the suggestor has to do the work, if they have not provided a detailed analysis of the links provided then readers are not getting a full picture. This is why when the OP asks for proof countering his suggestion, and it is already contained within the links provided, people tend to get pretty annoyed at the audacity of the suggestor. I have just given details on the links provided. This method of counterpointing based off of the original suggestors links will not be taken to a forum like you suggest, as it is perfectly reasonable and valid, giving the readers more facts based off the evidential links shown by the OP.


                                                          ~~~


                                                          Your last paragraph (Admins I apologise for the vulgar language but this teenager and his twisted crap would anger Gandhi himself) is frankly complete bollocks. You should be ashamed of yourself for attempting to say shit like that in front of 100's of voters. Voters go and look at the 2 suggestions he mentioned, you will find my posts on KoDorins suggestion @ http://backpack.tf/vote/id/530079854dd7b8002f8b4568 advising caution on suggesting days after sourceop cash trading section was shutdown and KoDorin himself provided some sales numbers in the suggestion after G-What! did a detailed analysis. As for d0's suggestion, it was accurate and there was no need for me to lend further proof to his suggestion.

                                                          I am sorry I could be there every single time but don't you worry Plaxorous, we will be here from now on giving people more detailed info on the links provided in refined suggestions.


                                                          Last but not least. I love looking back on prior suggestions and seeing mod's quotes:

                                                          @KoDorin's suggestion

                                                          If you have no experience with paypal trading, why are you making a suggestion that requires knowledge of the PP market?

                                                          Cleverpun · posted 8 months ago · Score: 7


                                                          Not questioning your knowledge, but if you have traded in the cash market, you will have a better sense of it. Many have the skill and knowledge to research unusuals and give an accurate price on them. Talk to a seasoned trader though, and they're more than likely to give you an also accurate price from the top of their head. I feel its the same for the cash market, being in it is the best way to get an idea of it.

                                                          [GIRL] Mr. Bucket · posted 8 months ago · Score: 3


                                                          ~~~


                                                          Talk to a seasoned trader guys.. maybe "they're more than likely to give you an also accurate price from the top of their head. "

                                                          Oh wait, you've already spoken to two people who deal in refined purchase/sales AND a marketplace.tf employee....


                                                          They are talking, but you really arn't listening very well.


                                                          Thanks for providing inaccurate statements about myself, prior suggestions, and evidence provided right above your post.


                                                          Ladies, gentlemen, thank you, goodnight. Close.

                                                            Whats with sweetheart and all those stuff....Are you trying to imply something here calling me by all those names? Ah, I am around 20 sir. You are yet again, going into indirect insult. I am not sure why you are taking me the wrong way here. In my last post, I have not gone against you but stated how it works here. My apologies, I went through past few suggestions and somehow overlooked your comment on KoD's last ref suggestion.


                                                            You provided 1 sale at $0.23, doesn't mean that should be in the range. You have to take the point that backpack tries to record the most common trading point. If I sell an item worth 2 keys for 3 keys, doesn't mean that 3 keys should be the new price. You have to take into account, are there other sellers selling at 3 and successfully selling them? Are there constant sellers below 2 keys that could contradict with 3 keys sales? You have to take few thinks into matter. (Before you go and say that I don't want $0.23 on the range...) I have no problem putting $0.23 into the range. In fact, I don't mind putting any range at all. I am not the type of person who cares about drops in backpack value, just want to find the most suitable and correct range. That is the whole point of me talking to you.


                                                            Like I said, in past suggestions nobody provided in thorough sales like you did, a perfect example would be d0's last ref suggestion. He provided sellers below market price during that time and unsolds, thats about it pretty much. Not to mention other suggesters as well. I posted how KoD posted his ref suggestion http://backpack.tf/vote/id/530079854dd7b8002f8b4568 providing by how much each seller have in stock. Also, not to mention...Nobody went sales by sales when dropping ref prices. Like what you are suggesting.


                                                            I wish I could post you the thread link where scrap.tf and marketplace.tf was talked about but sadly, the forums search functions are messy and doesn't work properly. I would have to thoroughly dig through 5 to 6 forums sections and countless of page on each forum to find that thread and post it here. I have said it before and will say it again... its not me saying bots are not valid proof A huge debate was made on this matter whether bots should be used or not. I never said I don't use bots as proof on my suggestions, did you read what I wrote? " I tend to use as less bots as I can " I try my very best to limit the links to bot in my key suggestions.


                                                            For some reason, I feel like as if you are trying too hard to make me look like the bad guy here and I am not sure why that is, whether it has to do with your mood change or you being drunk or you have this inner hatred toward me, I don't know but you are clearly trying to make me look like the bad guy here. To this point, I have not thrown out a single insult at you in any way (even if I did, know that its not my intention at all and I apologize in advance but I am 99% sure that I didn't) nor have I tried to make you look like the bad guy. Not to mention the way you are disrespecting me.


                                                            We both agreed on some things and we still yet have to agree on some others. Simple as that. There is/was no need for insults.

                                                              I will no longer reply to this back and forth, I am tired and each side has had ample opportunity to put their points across for voters to make an informed decision. That is what matters either way they decide to vote =).


                                                              But during this suggestion you have accused people who are putting an arguement against this price of; being a liar, hating or insulting you x3 (I may have thrown in an indirect one there right at the end but I am not the only person you have accused ;) )

                                                              I can't speak for the other people here but I have no hate towards you <3, just doing my best to give a contrary opinion to what the OP believes.

                                                                Being a liar? Hating? What? No, I have not, even if any of my reply does seem that way, know that it is nowhere near my intention and I already said I humbly and sincerely apologize for that. I just didn't expect constant disrespect and indirect insult from you. Its not the way any person should debate around or try to come to meet at a point.


                                                                I have said, we both agreed at some point and disagreed at some while on others, both stayed on neutrality. Not to mention we both were wrong and right on certain things as well.

                                                      I wish I could sound smart when making replies


                                                      What makes you say that the previous suggested range is better? The proof for that end of the range has vanished.

                                                        If I am not mistaken, I recall someone providing sale of $0.22? Nevertheless, the market has changed since the last time you suggested this. I am not 100% sure whether this needs a range or a flat drop. I am also waiting for a mod's reply like you are to see whether this needs a range or a flat drop.

                                                          I made a sweep through the comments before resuggesting, didn't find any sales besides peoples claims.

                                                        I don't really see how something being highballed by anyone... (site,bot,trader) is an issue IF IT IS SELLING

                                                        Highballing doesn't matter when no one is actually moving the product.

                                                        How do you think price increases even happen? Some hardass has to stand their ground or charge for more. It's the only way.

                                                          See my reply to Knight on #3 and....


                                                          No, that doesn't how price increases necessarily. Price should be most commonly traded, which is what backpack targets to record.

                                                            This. I don't think people want to try selling something for high when everyone around them is selling for so cheap.

                                          The market for Refined Metal to USD is considerably smaller than that of other currencies. Thus the amount of proof for Refined suggestions is also much less.

                                            Yet I can see many more threads on sourceop and tf2-trader than given in the suggestion.

                                              Would you like to provide those then? And how many have those actually sold?

                                                I am not the one who made this suggestion. It is not a reader's duty to provide additional proof, please give them a hand if you wish.

                                            It looks like my sale of 556 refined @ $0.25 each has been approved on SourceOP. You can see the +rep here:

                                            http://forums.sourceop.com/threads/155408-ocu-s-Rep-Thread/page3


                                            As far as your evidence goes, this is the only actual sale. And, it is in the current ($0.24-0.25) range.

                                              How long ago were these sales?


                                              0.24-0.25 is literally impossible for the last month and a half.

                                                It was just a few days ago.

                                                  There is no way when I can find people less than 0.24 right off the bat on trade.tf, backpack.tf, outpost, and source op

                                                    Cash trading is based on availability, reputation, and your personality.

                                                    •If you're an asshole, you may have to charge less.

                                                    •If you're hardly online, you may have to charge less.

                                                    •If you sell for lesser used currencies, you may have to charge less.

                                                    •If you never bump your trades, or only post your trade in one area, you may have to charge less.


                                                    Motivation = Money


                                                    With all due respect, I don't know who you are, but just because you can't move something for a price doesn't mean it's impossible for every other trader out there.


                                                    You guys are essentially taking classified ads. I could go RIGHT NOW and post that I'm selling ref for .18 and never actually sell any, or sell 5 pieces and leave the trade up just to try to rustle a few jimmies.

                                                    If you're not going to take real proof like one gentleman posted for .25, or .23 on the previous suggestion, then you better include the highballers in your proof too because you have no idea if they are selling for that high or not because you didn't even bother to check or ask.


                                                    BOOM. *Drops mic* :p

                                                      "Boom".


                                                      1. I'm not the suggestor

                                                      2. Your logic is really flawed.


                                                      Keep in mind this twp guy is the leader of ocu. He has probably has loads of connections and is extremely reputable, netting him lots more adds then I or the average trader can ever get.


                                                      An average trader like me can only bump his trades on 4 different sites so much before I start to notice that 0.24-0.25 does not sell as well as 0.23 or lower.


                                                      Also take in that so many other people selling lower than you if you decide to sell at 0.25. Can you still compete?


                                                      Looks like someone doesn't trade in paypal

                                                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B5NF3s4ZP8

                                                        Have another laugh on me :)


                                                        "as well as 0.23 or lower. "


                                                        This suggestion is for .21 flat.

                                                        I'm done.

                                                        *edit*

                                                        Relevant Comment: I have sold over $6k in paypal in just the last 3 months.

                                                        Relevant Comment: Quoted from SweatyPalms

                                                        "0.24-0.25 is literally impossible for the last month and a half."


                                                        All you are doing is jerking us off with your opinion.

                                                        You said you've sold ref at .23, .22, and .21. SHOW ME THE GOODS! :)

                                                        Provide links so we can close this suggestion and reopen one for .21-.23, that would be doing something constructive.

                                                        I would love to give MY proof, I'd be absolutely THRILLED to help!

                                                        But then everyone would cry because I'm a marketplace seller and I sell for .25-.27 :DDD

                                                        Mmmmm... Sweet, sweet Marketplace.


                                                        Side note: Depending on when this gets closed/another one gets opened, if valve has made anything new craftable, or something special with metal or hats for the halloween event, or even new chemistry sets, we may see stabilization again :)


                                                        I'm not arguing that it doesn't need a drop. Obviously metal is not high on anyone's radar at the moment, and supply is outweighing demand.

                                                        My argument and the argument of several others I BELIEVE (don't want to put words in people's mouths) is that the proof is cherry picked and not followed up on, as well as lack of actual sales.

                                                        Also, for this particular suggestion, I believe people are arguing with the flat drop rather than a range since proof has been given for higher amounts.

                                                        You have to expect a lot of back and forth when this is literally the foundation item of the game.

                                                          Bloody hell.


                                                          I'm arguing that selling at the current range is hard.


                                                          Did I say anywhere that I agree with this price.


                                                          You are done. This is an important suggestion. Keep your comments relevant.

                                                            I'll get to it soon. Again I'm busy with school.


                                                            Check out my rep threads and tf2-trader profile. All the rep is when I sold for 0.21. I'm currently running a test to see if 0.23 can sell.

                                                            i would agree with sweaty palms I wouldn't trust the leader of a bot group ocu for anything.even the sourceOP thread can be fixed.I would need a screenie of the pay pal transaction regardless that trade after all buying at 0.2$ is quite easy and also old news.

                                                            here is what I managed to buy make sure you see the date http://forums.sourceop.com/threads/161745-skapaneas-sourceop-rep-thread?p=1642603#post1642603

                                                  You can also check out backpack.tf forums. Whenever I have Refined Metal to sell, I always go there. So do a bunch of other traders.


                                                  I have also, in the past month or so, sold around 100 Ref for .23 each. If that helps any.

                                                  Keep on posting this suggestion. Youre being polite and straight to the point. I will keep upvoting. Dont worry if they keep killing the suggestion. Again. Its a big mafia bro. Keep doing your thing.

                                                    it is just my opinion, but i guess we should not count webmoney seller, they mostly sell for hugely discounted price. in first proof, he sells ref for 0.2 and keys for 1.7. if he sell ref for 0.2, they must sell keys for like 1.8 or so, they are just selling for cheap in order to get attention from someone using webmoney... cause webmoney is not used as many as paypal.

                                                      About your proof: Again focusing on Outpost... Cash trades happens elsewhere also,


                                                      At the moment, refined indeed had become more valuable... It's due recent fixed market price transitions. Lowering this could "preserve" key rise. We can also fix refined price and just sharply rise keys to compensate changes.. Until now, market is kinda messed up, - open for profit i guess. Lowering this could be a good move i guess. It will slow things down.

                                                        So many wrong things here, except your first sentence.


                                                        1- You mean, refined is less valuable now, not more.

                                                        2- "Fix refined price", "sharply rise keys", "lowering is a good move" . That is not the purpose of this site. You do not have the authority, power, or right to change the prices at your will and tell people what to do.


                                                        This site is there to observe the market and report the prices. Not the other way around.

                                                          That was just my trough's about what could happen in certain situations with other variables. Of course refs dropped, i am trying to figure out what effect will Valve's decision to rise prices will take on. It's clear that key's will rise and people at some point will stop to sell keys below market price. If this is correct, refs are more valuable now as it was before price update. Hope it helps.

                                                            Sorry, none of it makes any sense.


                                                            What are the variables here that you're talking about?

                                                            When did valve ever make a decision to raise the TF-2 key prices?

                                                            Why would people stop selling below market price?

                                                            How is any of this related to the current suggestion?


                                                            I have no idea what you're trying to say. Perhaps you're confused.

                                                          What ocu TWP said basically. The site is here to observe the market and report the current market ongoing prices. Lowering is not the point here. If market shows that people can sell ref at $0.30 then a suggestion at $0.30 will be made. At this moment, the current market is showing that there are sellers and sales happening below $0.24 - $0.25.


                                                          As for Outpost being focused...Look at my provided proof.

                                                            why everyone dislike this guy?

                                                            every thing he posted only have 5-7 dislikes

                                                            is it all the posters friends?

                                                            wanted to dislike him to hide the post to make people blind vote and make suggestion accept?

                                                            anyways i will click a downvote because this is really very little proofs

                                                            personally i think metal stays at that price have its own reason.

                                                            it does not like keys and buds

                                                            it will directly change everythings price in tf2

                                                            therefore this suggestion need to be wayyy more proof than this have

                                                            sorry but DOWNVOTE!

                                                            welcome redparadox's friends come to dislike me !

                                                              If you think I can be bothered to make 7 alternate accounts to dislike people...

                                                              Based on what I read, you don't seem to want the value to drop simple because you don't want it to drop. That's not how bp.tf works.


                                                              I might add that the only people with a significant amount of dislikes is plaxorous, and he's supporting my suggestion, so your logic doesn't make any sense.

                                                                i did not say alt

                                                                i say "friends"

                                                                  So, is there logically any reason why I would want the person supporting my suggestion's comments to be hidden?

                                                                    wtf? i say ocu's friend not yours are you srs?

                                                                      You said: "welcome redparadox's friends come to dislike me !"

                                                                      I'm not sure how that was supposed to imply ocu's friends

                                                                    those bp.tf forums buddies :p

                                                            Good to know there's more proof.

                                                              Your older suggestion was better, And it only would of passed with 56%, lets have you deal with more people saying no cause of this pretty steep drop in ref, this angers people who own ref in bulk, I own 20, some people own 100's to 1000's. So im staying neutral. Good luck, your going to need it, I assure you this is will a very close race. ALSO: Some suggestions get accepted in like 7 days, so its about what the mods think too.

                                                                I'm still waiting for what the mods think but they refuse to give any insight. They've been busy hiding comments as well, so they've definitely seen the suggestion.


                                                                The reason why I closed my last suggestion was because the $.22 links have all but 2 dropped their prices to $.21. One of the $.22 trades closed as well.

                                                                  DUDE, its the base currency of THE ENTIRE GAME

                                                                  Of course it's going to hang around for a while. There was good counterproof for .23 on the last suggestion, and now counterproof for .25 on this suggestion, where do you get off thinking .21 is going to pass if .21-.22 was 'taking too long for you' ?

                                                                    I didn't resuggest because it is taking too long, I resuggested because there is no proof for $.22 now.

                                                                Tentative upvote, although I liked the other range better and I agree with TWP in that if you're going to use a lot of outpost links (which is probably fairly relevant), then make sure you're actually using legit ones. Starting to be less sure about this.

                                                                    So what if there are the most sellers at $.21, but there are also lots of other sellers that make sales at a higher price. Downvote, Range needs to cover a bigger area for what evidence you have showing that people still make sales at $.25.

                                                                      Selling at 0.25 is like finding the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.


                                                                      I tried. Only sold like 10 ref.

                                                                      Terrible proof once again, downvote.

                                                                        Let's see counter proof instead of another circle jerk comment.

                                                                          You are suggesting the price, you need more proof.

                                                                            He's not the one suggesting

                                                                        I'm the only one who doesn't care what ref is worth. I'm neutral, have no idea what to think.

                                                                        ...Where did the statement of "If people are gonna sell at many ranges of prices AND sold at many ranges, let's NOT make a range entirely."


                                                                        Downvote.

                                                                          if i were you i closed this

                                                                            http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/12419098

                                                                            This guy has been selling for $0.25 for a year, well bumped.

                                                                            While the price is outdated, and keys went up, we should keep in mind that $0.23+ still happens.

                                                                            I am not saying $0.25 should stay in the range, but $0.21 without a range is completely incorrect and does not represent the market.

                                                                              0.23 does not happen.

                                                                              The previous, closed suggestion prior to this one prompted people to flip their ref to sell before it fell even further, opening a window of low sellers just to manipulate themselves into this messy suggestion. gg.

                                                                                It has also slowed down in-game transactions a bit, at least for me. I don't think anyone wants to have a lot of pure ref in their hands when this "bomb" goes off.


                                                                                It seems ironical how a vote that suggested fluctuations in the price of ref (whether that be true or false, please don't lynch me, not here to defend any case) actually caused the market to fluctuate even more. I know it is in the market's nature for values to be constantly changing, based on the simple law of supply and demand, but it is worrying to experience fluctuations in the base currency of the entire game. Especially now that these votes have been going on for about 9 days.


                                                                                Stability, pls.

                                                                                  The thing is, people, once they see the suggestion, feel the need to sell before it lowers so they can make profit in the long run. I am trying to do that with the crashing bill's.

                                                                                Quick dropping dem bills though and buds. With the same amount of proof and sometimes less and less time of the suggestion. MAFIA-much?

                                                                                  Sorry mr. Suggestor, but ocu and hunion make excellent points, downvote.

                                                                                    Funny when 90% of the people here never sold refined or even did a paypal trade.


                                                                                    I tried selling refined at 0.23 for a week. Hardly got any adds, didn't sell much refined.


                                                                                    THE CURRENT PRICE IS DEFINITELY OUTDATED. Let's start with that.


                                                                                    0.21 isn't too bad, again it's what people are actually selling for, even before this suggestion even appeared.

                                                                                    I noticed this trend when I started selling refined again ( 1.5 months ago). 0.21 was the regular price on the market. I had to bump my price down to 0.21 to even compete.


                                                                                    I've sold 1000+ refined in the past month and a half for money. 0.21 was the price I used. This is a scary huge bump though. People will be angry.


                                                                                    I'd recommend for you plaxorous to do this. I'd do it myself but I have no time this week.

                                                                                      I am trying my best to help but as you can see people gets upset over drops on ref price. Upset and furious.

                                                                                      Nobody gets upset when keys go up and buds go down? And bills go down too? Sigh...

                                                                                        Bills are down because there are 100s available in the SCM.

                                                                                        The only reason they held their value as long as they did was because you had to do 2 seconds of work to actually perform a trade with someone xD

                                                                                        Buds are going down too for the above reason AND hallowiener cometh. :\ tis the season!

                                                                                        Gonna have to agree, $0.21 seems like quicksell, especially with the number of stock.

                                                                                          tl;dr

                                                                                          Seriously, don't have time to read "The Detailed Microeconomics and Macroeconomics of Refined Metal in Team Fortress 2, Their Sundry and Diverse Effects, Applications, and Consequences Upon the Virtual Economy, and Proofs and Counterproofs (Unabridged Version)"

                                                                                          BUT, I get the gist of it. On the one hand, Paradox does not have enough proof/experience in cash trading for his suggested range to be viable. On the other hand, this price is waaay out of date, which is why there's so many blind upvotes.

                                                                                          ...

                                                                                          Sooo, if all these people who do have the requisite "tons of experience" have wrote a collaborative textbook-sized article in this one thread...

                                                                                          Why haven't the "experts" made a counter-suggestion yet???

                                                                                            I rarely visit this site and contribute to this method of pricing unless it is of a fundamental item ie refined, and therefore do not have the ability to make a refined suggestion due to the 25 contribution point requirement. Chicken is in the process of moving from one state to another and only has time to make a comment here and there. No idea about OCU ;)

                                                                                            If someone were to resuggest this at 0.22-0.23, it would get my vote as a drop is defintely needed. I think you, I and everyone here can agree that as I have not seen any comments suggesting 0.24 - 0.25 is correct by anybody.

                                                                                            Edit: Great title by the way xD

                                                                                              Thanks for reply and compliment, college has done nothing for me if it has not made me verbose

                                                                                              Also nb4 -10 because this thread is a hatesink

                                                                                                No problem at all Kirby, I was happy to answer your very valid question.

                                                                                                I do not see a reason for people to dislike your question, the supporters of this suggestion will like it because it has an underlying

                                                                                                connotation (percieved in their eyes) of negativity against the counterproofers', and the opposition of this suggestion -should- accept it was a prefectly reasonable question to ask.

                                                                                                Whichever way people decide to view what you have said, you've gotten a like from me for making a sensible comment. =)

                                                                                              I was really wondering that myself. Despite all of these words being typed, I haven't found much to counter my supposedly low amount of proof (even though it's most of the market).

                                                                                              Honestly: Between the greedy 'buying quicksells only' whores driving prices down, the innumerable scammers and dupes from early mannconomy exploitations, the key flippers driving key prices up and craft cosmetics down, the idle drop farm accounts exploit that valve took like 2 years to finally fix, valve being so greedy they had to make everything marketable, the trade bot assholes, and valve just not giving a shit in general about fixing the ref surplus after many years of hardly updating the crafting system.... Are we really surprised this economy is possibly approaching hyperinflation / collapse? GG valve and GG greedy community. You all have earned this.

                                                                                                OH ffs leave da goddamm metals alone...

                                                                                                  The issue of people with more reputation selling for more is a tricky one. Yes, people pay more for security / convenience. But I don't think that necessarily means that we should base our prices on people with less reputation.


                                                                                                  Based on the comments showing quite a successful sales at 22 and 23, I would probably prefer a range of 21-23. I think that would safely capture the most common trade points for this item with some sales above 23 and some below 21. I don't think anyone could possibly have an issue with that.

                                                                                                    Finally a response

                                                                                                    Aren't there such things as middlemen? Alright, well I'll resuggest a third time then.