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~$0.08
Unique Refined Metal
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2396 votes down
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Hello there everyone. Hope you all are doing great! ^_^


Sellers at $0.24


http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/20071148

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=27447.0


Sellers at $0.23


http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16140132

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/20151346

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/15565942

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/21153358

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/21124546

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/21110741

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/19693292

http://www.reddit.com/r/tf2trade/comments/2ae2pl/h_190_usd_paypal_w_tons_of_metal_for_023_usd_each/

http://www.reddit.com/r/tf2trade/comments/28inbq/h_paypal_w_refined_023_keys_185_usd/

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=28533.0

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=29579.0

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=28836.0


Sellers at and below $0.22


http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/21165225 --> $0.22

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/19998689 --> $0.22

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=28061.0 --> $0.22

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=27702.0 --> $0.22

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=29609.0 --> $0.22

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=26344.0 --> $0.21

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=27204.0 --> $0.21

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=29035.0 --> $0.21


Sellers at $0.25


http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/21139273

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/21164570

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/20019133

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=28608.0


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


¹: http://www.wmtransfer.com/eng/about/ - States webmoney currencies

²: http://www.oanda.com/currency/converter/ - Simple converter for currency

If you're too lazy...

1 Russian Rouble (RUB/WMR) ~ $0.02803 USD

1 British Pound (£) ~ $1.68506 USD

1 Euro (€) ~ $1.38016 USD

NOTE: These are rough translations and may change as values rise and fall


=/=\=/=\=/=/=/=\=/=\=/=/=/=\=/=\=/=/=/=\=/=\=/=/=/=\=/=\=/=/

Conclusion : $0.23 seems like the most common trading point.

=/=\=/=\=/=/=/=\=/=\=/=/=/=\=/=\=/=/=/=\=/=\=/=/=/=\=/=\=/=/

Add : Hardly any sellers above $.23

=/=\=/=\=/=/=/=\=/=\=/=/=/=\=/=\=/=/=/=\=/=\=/=/=/=\=/=\=/=/

Add 2 : Posted all available sellers.

=/=\=/=\=/=/=/=\=/=\=/=/=/=\=/=\=/=/=/=\=/=\=/=/=/=\=/=\=/=/

Add 3 : Thanks d0 for a bit of help on this and Kejsumaru™ for the converter links.

=/=\=/=\=/=/=/=\=/=\=/=/=/=\=/=\=/=/=/=\=/=\=/=/=/=\=/=\=/=/


Feel free to hate, support or give good counter-proof.

~~~

Thanks to all Supporters, Moderators, Haters, Highballers, Lowballers, Physicists, Microbiologist, Ethologists, Geologist, Astronomer and Aliens obviously

    Inb4 everybody's back drops even though their backpack is not full of refined. On topic, I'm not sure If I should up or down vote with all this supporting and countering proof :/

      So.... since keys are going down I thought people would make buds and ref go up but nope. :(

          backpack.tf has nothing to do with opinions, this site is based on proof. It is showing what items are selling for on an estimate, not randomly changing prices because it "crashes the tf2 economy".

          down vote for this seller=/=bought no proof on how many of it was bought

            Since almost 99% of the sensible comments (of course beside the insensible comments one) are pushing for a range rather than a flat drop I will re-suggest with more proof and with a range of $.23 - $.24


            CLOSING

            Proof anything above 0.23 doesn't sell?

                I actually do. Plus, they don't have to comment "added for ref" on my trade to prove they have bought some. There are some people who don't bother giving rep and some who do, they say bought ref bla bla...

                    How can I post proof of selling ref, just show trade history of ref being traded for nothing?

                        http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=29292.30

                        http://bazaar.tf/thread/5355/2


                        It's there... if you can't see it you're blind. Search "ref" using Ctrl + F and you'll see I've sold some. As I said before, not everyone bothers giving rep for ref since it is such a cheap currency. The last person I asked for rep from buying ref laughed and asked why I was rep whoring.

                            Do I really need to baby feed you my rep.


                            tf2-trader

                            Page 1

                            1 person


                            Page 2

                            3 people


                            Page 3

                            1 person


                            I've got about 5 more people who are interested in my friends list but are currently out of stock in cash.

                                You lost the argument, accept it. I'm not persuading you that ref is 0.28, I'm asking for proof that anything above 0.23 doesn't happen.

                                    How the **** there are guys like KNTRL and Plaxorous who haven't any valid argument for discuss, and still want to discuss?


                                    You can see the poor argument from KNTRL, based on his own experience, because he did 8000 trades, and he know everything. He just is another gullible millonaire, "who thought to be the best." (Sorry if this sentence is bad writted, translate did it). And from Plaxorous in the comment from LookAtMyChicken. Very surprised, Plaxorous is one of the best suggesters, but now your own cause for down the price of this item are doing disasters with your arguments.


                                    Sorry, but I'll downvote due the counter-proof shown, and how your proof isn't valid, great help from Look AtMyChicken, thanks for that.

                                      lol

                    What is this tomfoolery? Looking through your proof you have seller links mixed with buyer links? Poorly bumped threads that haven't even been touched in months? If a drop is in order, it damn sure ain't .23 flat. The market just got depleted of metal and hats due to breadboxes. This is just silly. VOTERS: Make sure you check the proof links before voting!

                    You can see metal selling all day every day here for over .25 https://marketplace.tf/items/5002;6/Refined%20Metal

                        I will now return to you the same respect you have shown myself & others.

                        Your proof is ass. Hence my comment.

                        Some from SOP that is current would be nice.

                          Quicksold some metal just for funsies.

                          http://gyazo.com/454a110697e3da94144d37e8c1aa505a .29

                          http://gyazo.com/2d36854f4134700a4f4031d7312896c6 .29


                          More 'outliers' for you guys.


                          At least these are recent :)

                              No, I just can't read.


                              What is also interesting to me is that you decided somewhere to take the paypal risk upon yourself, and undercut your own listings on marketplace to 'branch out' on your own, and sell refined metal for 23½ on tf2-t, and undercut yourself again on SOP for .22½.


                              I am merely proving that its possible to sell metal very quickly, without a drop. I'm not trying to raise the price here.


                              Just because you decided to charge 3 different prices, should also not make you a reputable form of 'proof'.


                              I can go set up a thread any time, any where, and attempt to charge whatever the hell I feel like, but alas I am just one person.


                              This is a currency still, after all, right? :)

                      "Alrighty then" -Ace Ventura


                      http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/20071148 - 6 ref in BP

                      http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=27447.0 - Last Bumped: May 12, 2014, 06:20 AM


                      http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16140132 - 16 ref or so in BP

                      http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/20151346 - 0 Ref in BP

                      http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/15565942 - actually has some metal

                      http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/21153358 - has metal but clearly an alt of someone's

                      http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/21124546 - 0 Ref

                      http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/21110741 - has 20 or so

                      http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/19693292 - I can't speak russian, not going to bother

                      1st reddit post is for a reseller

                      2nd reddit post is over a month old, no activity on SOP

                      http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=28533.0 - OLD , about 15ref in bp, and on vacation apparantly

                      http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=29579.0 - KNTRL, OLD price?

                      http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=28836.0 - OLD, 2ref in BP


                      http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/21165225 - 3ref, new

                      http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/19998689 - 11ref

                      http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=28061.105 - has quite a few

                      http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=27702.0 - has 50 or so, poorly bumped

                      http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=29609.0 - Old, has 10, poorly bumped

                      http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=26344.0 - Old, poorly bumped, but has many

                      http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=27204.0 - OLLLLLLD, has around 10ref or so, poorly bumped

                      http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=29035.0 - -BUYING- ref for .21 , old.


                      http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/21139273 - new

                      http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/21164570 - new

                      tf2outpost.com/trade/20019133 - Spoke with Ko, no sales in a while

                      http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=28608.0 - 3 months old, unbumped, not even gonna bother looking.


                      Some quick finds of my own just for giggs

                      http://forums.sourceop.com/threads/158549-Keys-1-79-Refine-24-Earbuds-33-50-each - .24

                      http://forums.sourceop.com/threads/159137-Keys-1-88-Buds-35-Ref-0-225 - (KNTRL is selling cheaper here than up above in the post i marked) .22½


                      http://forums.sourceop.com/threads/159323-35-Earbuds-1-90-Keys-0-35-Refined-12-14-Bill-s .35

                      http://forums.sourceop.com/threads/156947-Keys-%281-90-%29-and-Refined-%280-35-%29 .35

                      http://forums.sourceop.com/threads/157332-Refined-metal-0-22-I-pay-ALL-fees-!/page5 .22 about 40 ref left


                      And then these 'outliers' from marketplace which you wrote off so quickly. ( Credit to Red Inferno ) Thanks bud

                      http://puu.sh/a8VyY/6cd72bac36.png .29

                      http://puu.sh/a8VxS/2a1dec41a7.png .29


                      Thank ye kindly for your time.

                        After reading this whole discussion, I've got to downvote this suggestion. No offense to you, plaxorous, as it looks like you put a lot of effort into this suggestion, but chicken's counter-proof and argument is more convincing.

                            Based on this statement and what ive seen and read, just because they cant sell it at .25/.24 doesnt mean other people havent. Also, they way you make it sound, you are doing this for them, like, they put you up to the task to bring down the price/manipulate.


                            As for the proof itself, i do think chicken has thrown enough reason to say downvote.

                                Manipulate what? You know what will change to me if this suggestion pass? Nothing. I will buy lower and sell higher as always did.

                                Oh,well,to be honest I'll loose some cash since I have 300+ refs in my backpack. Omg,sick manipulation,so much profit coming for me.

                                Do whatever you want,keep the price outdated,it changes nothing to me.


                                " they way you make it sound, you are doing this for them, like, they put you up to the task to bring down the price/manipulate. "

                                => http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/14312-refined-metal-suggestion-needed/

                                I just asked to the whole forum.

                              It feels like the comment section is nothing but a giant flame war.

                                what did you expect? metal horders and farmers are going to lose a fortune on this vote :-)

                                  The farmers are the ones driving down the price is the irony xD

                                  Yeah exactly what Crass Spektakel said.

                                        If there are sellers are 21c i don't see how 23c flat is an accurate representation.

                                    it seems to easily sell at 23 cents. downvote

                                      very unsure about this, I'll have to spent a while looking at all the proof and counters before I can make a confident choice

                                          Chicken's argument is more convincing like the other guy said, downvote.

                                            0.23 in range?, maybe.


                                            0.23 the standard price on such a heavily trafficked item?, uh no.

                                              downvote


                                              Why?

                                              a) Counter-suggestions proof is more convincing.

                                              b) I want to help the economy not blow the economy's brains out by making refined worthless.

                                                Downvote; proof is insufficient

                                                  I sold 15 ref for .25 each. It was through paypal so I am not sure how to take screenshots, lol

                                                    I use gyazo https://gyazo.com/

                                                    But I think everyone uses something else.

                                                    You can also do it the 'old-fashioned' way and cntrl+prnt scrn > open paint > cntrl+v > save > upload to your favorite image sharing site.

                                                    PLEASE black out account numbers, sensitive data, etc. (if any)

                                                    Downvote, counter-proof has overturned your proof

                                                      What if $0.23 was a Quicksell Price? o_O

                                                        If .23 is a quicksell price, many would be selling at higher price not lower or at .23 because they would constantly run out of stock, especially the ones who sells regularly (They are provided in .23 links section as well as some at .22). Even if it is a quicksell price the market is getting dominated by .23 sellers and some at below.

                                                            Oh boy the police are here with underlined* red text.


                                                            *edit

                                                            Good to know the is going down by 1-2 pennies 0_0 such something to argue about

                                                              Major currencies are always something to argue about-for those who have considerably larger accounts that is.

                                                              This penny drop can cause a profile (such as mine) or even higher, to drop nearly 50$-insert-amount-here$.

                                                              Although it is all virtual money, the people will always fight for somethings value, especially huge currencies such as Refined Metal/Keys/Buds.

                                                                True...True

                                                              While I don't think it should be a flat 0.23, I think the range should probably change.


                                                              Proof for $0.22 (over 200 in stock): http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/21265234

                                                                  Your logic is so narrow minded. How bout this let me put it in simpler words..... refined is going for a single penny less how about you pay a penny for every single refined in tf2. I doubt that will be of little cost.

                                                                    Yeah, sorry bout that. About 5 minutes after I posted that I thought. "That was pretty stupid." And then deleted it.

                                                                    Can't tell if you're trolling, or srs....

                                                                    Down-vote, Good counter-proof "LookAtMyChicken".

                                                                        counterproof clearly shows prices above $0.23 do sell

                                                                            how is it the most common price? he only has 7 sellers at $0.23 and in that 3 of the trades are over 6 months old

                                                                              I highly suggest you to look at the market good sir. I won't rage or bother to argue. Refined market is incredibly small than any other currency. Look at the market before typing out "only this" "only that"

                                                                            i only see 2 links of marketplace.tf in his counterproof? what are you on about?

                                                                      Downvote be better if it had a range like 0.23-0.24 but 0.23 sells kinda quick

                                                                          Doesn't matter if it sells fast or not, the price is based on what the most common selling and asking price is, not what it can get. This isn't like normal items.

                                                                            Sill I think a range like 0.23-0.24 would be better

                                                                              Then that would be inaccurate.

                                                                              You're wrong, sometimes the price isn't based on most common point, if the "common point" is quickselling, and is possibly sell for higher than the suggested common point.

                                                                                Maybe you should look at the past suggestions, even the creator of the site said this.

                                                                                  Some of my suggestions was closed for that argument, especially my Key suggestion some months ago, what was closed and Pyroman's suggestion was accepted, mine range was the most common point, but the mods said what it was quickselling, and the suggestion get closed.

                                                                            Lookatchicken had nice counterproof so downvote. Also above $0.24 happens. :)

                                                                              I like your proof and all but look https://marketplace.tf/items/5002;6/Refined%20Metal there are so many sellers for .25 and above actually .25 is like a quicksale because i usually see them selling for .29+.

                                                                                Marketplace isn't valid proof. Please read the comments above, thank you.

                                                                                  https://tf2shop.net/details/5002-6


                                                                                  https://www.tf2buy.com/item.php?id=5002&quality=6


                                                                                  both verified resellers with over 3,000 users in thier steam groups and DAILY sales ABOVE .24 as well as sellers

                                                                                  these are PEOPLE selling and not the SCM or marketplace if need be ill even go through and show you sales in full

                                                                                  to get it through your thick skull, proof is proof is proof, and if they cannot make trade you are fully refunded automatically save the 15 cent refund fee

                                                                                try tf2buy and tf2shop as well they are very reputable and sell daily both around.28-.30


                                                                                http://imgur.com/a/EMWU2#0


                                                                                a link to the screen per your request

                                                                                  Instead of putting this, please provide screenshot. For all I know all these sales could be as old as when refined metal was at .27 - .28

                                                                                    they are in fact not the screens + a visit to www.tf2shop.net will show current prices

                                                                                    added link to screens per request

                                                                                        they are not the same site at all completely different owners and currently marketplace.tf sells at .35

                                                                                            it doesn't mean its discounted either there are sales at both sites meaning those ranges aren't entirely out of the spectrum

                                                                                            they are also trusted and paypal verified for years unlike most sellers on bazzar etc

                                                                                              I am not going to argue with you because you are clearly not thinking right. You are trying to say that refined metal should rise when there are many sellers available for .23 (my suggestion price) and below. If it were possible above that, nobody would be selling for .23 or below at the moment. Everyone would be selling for higher than .23

                                                                                                you can say that people sell you can also sell or buy at those ranges, but i and most others wont purchase willy nilly from anyone,

                                                                                                and im simply providing you counter proof that there are sells for higher than what you reccomend. take it or leave it for what it is

                                                                                                and i can assure you they are indeed all separate sites

                                                                                  I feel like people that don't do money trading need to realize how the refined market works, because we seem to have the same discussion every time a new suggestion comes up. The fact that people sell refined for more than the main trading point means very little -- especially in small quantities.


                                                                                  Many unfamiliar traders are willing to pay a premium in order to feel secure that they are not getting scammed. Marketplace.tf is an excellent example. They sell plenty of refined metal at $.35 each because they emphasize "reputable sellers" (even though its clear that they are not as trust-worthy as they should be as of late). There are plenty of other sites and/or traders that work with the same business plan.


                                                                                  The refined metal price should be based off of the large traders who may be selling hundreds of refined each day. The most commonly traded price should be the recognized price. It is very clear that there are plenty of sellers available at $.23 cents, while below that stocks are less significant.


                                                                                  I would appreciate if people were more open-minded when voting on suggestions about markets they are less familiar with.

                                                                                    Are you saying you agree, or disagree

                                                                                      Supporting. "The most commonly traded price should be the recognized price. It is very clear that there are plenty of sellers available at $.23 cents, while below that stocks are less significant."

                                                                                        I have not voted. I feel that the suggestion is worthy of passing, but I would understand if the mods would rather have a $.23-.24 range. Mainly, I am trying to encourage people unfamiliar with for cash trading to do some research or not vote. The refined market is much smaller than most people realize, and it is unlike anything else on backpack.tf.

                                                                                          Agree, if the refined is going down, 0.23 - 0.24 range is much better than 0.23.

                                                                                        i would also appreciate it if you stopped for a second and looked at the current inflation and used a little common sense

                                                                                        at .23 for ref an 2.07 for a key with a key being WORTH 8.44 means that monetary wise it takes 9 ref to buy a key

                                                                                        that's a roughly .66 ref offset of inflation as well as the fact that its WELL known keys can be sold on SCM for anywhere between $2.30-$2.50 rather quickly it only goes to show how offset the economy really is with people screwing around that have no clue how economy works

                                                                                        How odd, 3 weeks ago I couldn't sell a single ref for a quarter until two days ago.


                                                                                        Sold 100 ref for .24 each: http://puu.sh/afwQ6/2c74734eb6.png --> http://puu.sh/afxbY/cb3edd3930.png - 24/.24 = 100 ref sold .24 each.


                                                                                        Sold 15 ref for .25 each: http://puu.sh/afxg5/d0f793a95a.png --> http://puu.sh/afxp0/993d5da7d5.png - I also sold him 10 keys (keys being 1.90, my price and the current price for pp) and the total was $22.75. 22.75 - 19 = 3.75/.25 = 15 ref sold .25 each.


                                                                                        Ref is weird.

                                                                                          no offense but that could be any random screenshot, any way to verify it was indeed from the user? and for refined or keys?

                                                                                            Not enough proof... Refined metal is the base currency of tf2, youre going to need more than 12 sources; Ideally ten times that

                                                                                              I will just quote myself. "I highly suggest you to look at the market good sir. Refined to Paypal market is incredibly small than any other currency." Look at the market before typing you need 10x more than this and that. I also literally provided almost all of the available sellers. ^.^

                                                                                                it is indeed very small. so small that it is hilarious to establish the value of items no one would sell for refined and then for real world funds. it's a design flaw of bp.tf that so few sellers and buyers can effect the value of the entire tf2 economy.


                                                                                                it's old but still valid. turnips: http://one-crate-per-week.tumblr.com/post/53786480490/week-18

                                                                                                  you just commented and i quote saying "market is not valid proof" you just nullified your own statements

                                                                                                  Refs sales or Sellers aren't much popular as you think. Who buys with cash mainly go for keys instad of refs.

                                                                                                  For example,I'm selling keys @ 1,85-1,90 based on my stocks and refs for 0,225. On 100 sales,99 are for keys,1 for metal.

                                                                                                    theyre worth mire than that if you gauge on what people are already paying,

                                                                                                    but i do like your point and its essentially true most people will buy keys over ref

                                                                                                      Dat -3 comment rating tho

                                                                                                          About half of the people are down voting this because LookAtMyChicken brought up some very counter proof. And then the other half is just people saying this will crash the market and the economy will be screwed up...


                                                                                                            Yeah, people are reluctant to vote through things that will lower their backpack value sadly. Proof has been brought up from sites that charge a premium for security, but that has not and will not ever determine the market price. It seems that $.23 is the most commonly traded pricepoint. Getting refined for less would likely not occur in large quantities. Ultimately, the mods probably have their own research to do before a decision is made. It doesn't seem any new development besides junk comments has occurred recently, so hopefully this is taken care of fairly soon.

                                                                                                            Wow i sold like 20 ref for 28 cents each a few days ago

                                                                                                              You Must show proof, unless, your comment is invalid.

                                                                                                                Exactly the same with me. I've sold quite a lot at .28.

                                                                                                                  Proof, please.

                                                                                                                I have the feeling mods delaying are hoping someone makes a counter-suggestion....

                                                                                                                  Not really no. I added more proof look above :P

                                                                                                                    still not enough proof and all are shown at the already current price

                                                                                                                    ref resellers is such a small market hence why i posted my own counter

                                                                                                                    people will not buy from random ppl they cannot trust and i dont think you realize how bad your actually affecting the economy by voting this already price conversion is WAY off for irl monetary ref-key

                                                                                                                      Like I said before your counter isn't valid and yet again you don't make sense. You say "ref market is very small" then say "you don't have enough proof" Make up your mind good sir.

                                                                                                                        you dont read very well do you >.>

                                                                                                                        my counter is quite valid theres over 300 ref alone in just a span of a month at the price listed

                                                                                                                        i say that unverified sellers is a very small market as thier sales are all under the table or few and far between

                                                                                                                  The Counter-Proof has already negated your Original and extra Proof bro, if this gets accepted then I wouldn't be sure why, since there is no reason for this to drop with all of the current sellers (of those included in the counter-proof) of the values from 24-25+ Cents

                                                                                                                    Sellers selling for a certain price doesn't necessarily mean they've had success selling at that price.

                                                                                                                    I think these should be higher or key prices need to drop you can buy 10 ref for 2.40 and keys are worth 2.49 and worth about 8 ref

                                                                                                                      Keys are going Down. As well as Ref? Plus You have a lot of proof for 23 cents, as well as 22 cents.

                                                                                                                        Keys are going down but not the actual market price.

                                                                                                                        Reading through this made my eyes hurt.


                                                                                                                        From what I see, there are many sellers at $0.23, but there are also many successful sellers anywhere from $0.21-$0.29. From what I see $0.24-$0.25 sells very well, and $0.23 sells very quickly. I honestly don't see why bp.tf would lower the price of refined to $0.23 flat if refined can easily sell for much more.


                                                                                                                        I will downvote this suggestion, in my opinion, based on the sellers and solds, the price needs a range. Maybe $0.23-$0.25?

                                                                                                                          Keeping it within the range of $0.25 will help.

                                                                                                                          Refined Metal seems to have reached standardization at the $0.25 point, being the lowest raw currency. Keeping it at least in the RANGE of $0.25 would still keep standardization strong. Now, a whopping $0.02 will make a difference in the long run, as far as cumulative backpack values are concerned, as well as the price of everything on the market. But, all in all, due to all the counter-proof provided, it looks like Plaxorous is losing this battle. (Huehuehue.)

                                                                                                                            Ref is like the fundamental part of pricing. So imo, ref should go down slowly; 24.5-23 seems like too much of a big leap

                                                                                                                            Would be more accurate to say something like 23-24 or 23-25.